Simpson’s Side Show Bob and Futile Disputation

These are excerpts from my long dialogue yesterday in IRC Undernet #philosophy

Towards the end, I narrate one episode from the Simpsons and make a certain point, hence the title.

The issue is the earliest occurrence of the phrase "human rights" in English (or any other language I suppose).

well, they also used to speak of the divine right of kings....

oh, I know what I read once, in an introductory book on law. it said that for thousands of years, rights were considered in terms of your class, or family lineage... but only gradually did the concept of an individuals rights evolve
our educational systems are always stressing grade point averages, and chosing valedictorians and salutatorians and magna cum laudes.... which does not sound very "equal" or egalitarian or democratic to me

I mean, if all are equal, then why such a lust for one-upsmanship
here it is in google, the first link that pops up when you google on Thoreau "human rights" http://www.hrweb.org/history.html
yes, those were called "miscegenation" laws

I met a fellow in south Africa,... who contacted my in myspace .... and when I mentioned interracial marriages (I am in one for 16 years).... he said he disapproves...

he was white south African

he was just a very prejudiced person in south Africa... I never bothered to inquire his reasons...

and THEN I discovered that he wants to preach his brand of Christianity... and when he was I was not interested, he did not want to talk with me...

I am white, and I married an Asian from the Philippines.... so
those experiences really transformed me with regard to other races...
each and every person is an individual

(someone asks if Asian women are 'hot' or better)

you cant say all Canadians are this way, and all Russians are that way, and the French and Germans are some other way

each and every man an woman is a totally unique individual, no two are the same

I grew up in the 1950s and 60s, in a New England environment of racial prejudice,... not like Alabama... but still, an atmosphere of prejudice.... so... I feel healed now, though my experience with other races and cultures
it was like having a horrible cancer in your mind...

in my mind, anyway, that is how it seems to me, as I look back on it
I think it is progress that there can be a woman candidate for high office, or a woman of color in a position of power and authority
that is a big change over the 19th century, certainly

I had to google to "remember" this, but it was geneticist Spencer Wells who did that "Journey of Man" documentary, proving through genetic markers, that racial difference is a fiction

putting it in my own words from memory... sorry if it is inaccurate
but I mean, prehistoric ancestor was a bushman in Africa, who speaks that strange clicking language, unlike any other

that really convinces me... Spencer wells documentary

but, the point of Spencer Wells' work is that, it isn't just a politically correct attitude of "color does not matter", but rather , we are all genetically related

I mean, that was the big thing for me about Spencer Wells' work
do you know that archeologists found, in Greenland, a small jade Buddha figure, that dated from like 100 b.c.e. that was so awesome

I mean, that things traveled around like that, in very ancient times
kingdom phylum class order family genus species (sub species) - Linnaeus Binomial Nomenclature
or something like that
we learned that in 8th grade, and that was like 50 years ago for me...

I like to talk about the concept of liberal and conservative... but then it comes close to breaking channel rules about politics... so, I steer clear
the term classical sometimes connote things that are from ancient rome and Greece,... perhaps classic is a more accurate term... which I guess means "typical" "standard" traditional...
now, you have me curious enough to google
ok, I surrender, the term "classical liberalism" is in wikipedia... and wikipedia has my great respect
though, an alternate term is "traditional liberalism" or "laisse-fair liberalism"
I was wrong about the term "classical"
gosh, wikipedia associates it with Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mills
interesting read for me, I am rather ignorant in these matters
not a beginning, not an end, but a good start... good enough for the likes of me, most days
and it mentions "the invisible hand"
so, are you saying I should not use wikipedia, because you find it lacking?
funny, I was thinking the phrase "grain of salt" before you posted it
I can tell you in all honesty, that in the past year or so, I have found so many answers to things I wanted to know, using google, in wikipedia, and I always google, I never start with wikipedia

I will give you an excellent example from last week...

I always admired the singing of Johnny Mathis, since my teenage years... but in the back of my mind I was curious about his "orientation"... as well as former mayor koch...
two years ago, I googled but found nothing specific
but last week, I found my answer in a wikipedia biography of Mathis....
so, I have often been impressed by how google has led me to wikipedia so many times
I am simply pointing out that I never ever start at wiki, I start at google, and scan the brief link synopses... before I click a link
and, so often, I get what I want at wiki...
oh... in fact,... I could not remember that actress in the 1920s, who was strangled because she always wore long scarfs, and one got caught in a car wheel
so, I had to google, of course

well, it was Isadora Duncan.... but I found something amazing, that I was not looking for
but I am not sure if it was wiki

yup sure enough... I added WIKI to my search just now, and it was wiki, that had a love letter from Isadora Duncan to another woman,... which was very poetic, but also, mindboggling
what I personally want from my internet experience,... here in irc, and google, and blogs... is to learn something new each day...
and... some kind of companionship
and... a vehicle to express myself... and also, just exercise my mind
this channel is head and shoulders above any chat in yahoo and Myspace...
this channel was quality 5 years ago, when I spent a year here.... and it is still high quality

for me anyway
that thing about being "thrilled every day" is an excellent point
I mean, somehow , our human nature seeks that.... our blessing and curse is that we can imagine a perfection which is far beyond anything that is possible
I can tell you one thing that thrilled me, in here a few years ago... people were discussing Camus....

and someone asked, "but where is the compassion in Camus"...
so, I said, "here is an even better question, where is the compassion in all the history of philosophy"...
and then, bingo, it hit me... Plato's cave analogy

that one bloke frees himself from illusion, and leaves the cave into the pure sunlight...

but... what does he do then?

he turns around just like some Boddhisattva of compassion, and goes back in the shadows, to liberate the others

and, part of the thrill, is the illusion of personal discovery....

I mean, my 4 years in St. Johns Annapolis, you wanted to come up with something utterly profound and devastation.... every seminar, every essay
in a way, it becomes an affliction
I mean, just like a habit you can never feed
oh sure.... all that stuff

and, I rented all 28 episodes of Ramanad Sagar's tv Ramayan production, in Hindi, with English subtitles
you know, that long movie version of Ghandi's life...
at the very end, as the credits roll by, there is this haunting melody played, but no words...
no american realizes that the melody was Gandhi's favorite HindI hymn (bhajan)

I shouldn't say no American... but the vast majority do not realize it
do you understand Hindi at all... you will know the moment I say one verse
but, to keep this philosophical.... people can savor things only to the extend that they are immersed in a certain culture and tradition...

I mean, most people in America who read Rusdie's "satanic verses" probably missed a lot, since one needs to understand several different cultures and traditions

I used to volunteer a lot of my time on line to help literature students... on the internet...

and the ones in the U.A.E. had the hardest time with things like Joyce's "Portrait of the Artist"...

because, they were not grounded in the same culture
here is a simple minded example.... but very obvious...
there is this one Bergman film, about a doctor, who has a son and a daughter, and the daughter is afflicted with mental illness

well, there is one scene, where the doctor runs away from a picnic table, runs to his study, stands in silhouette at a window.... and spreads his arms wide in an a gesture of crucifixion... but... only obvious to someone who grew up ...
in a culture which looks for those sorts of symbols
so, for viewers in Kuwait. that moment might pass unobserved
here is a different example... the shorts stories of j.d. Salinger...

the Nine Short Stories, collection.. there is one entitled "Teddy"
Salinger loved to utilize things unknown to American culture of his time... like eastern orthodox concepts from the Philokalia
and this has to do with our constant desire "to be thrilled"
so, Teddy was a prodigy child who claims to have been reborn, but a former holy man in India,...

yes, Ingmar Bergman died a few weeks ago
anyway... this news reporter is on board the ship, with the boy and his parents, and the boys little sister...
so, the little boy is explaining to the news reporter about his former life, and how he was guilty of an indiscretion with a woman, and his punishment was his current rebirth
well, here is the point which Salinger throws in, that no one will get unless they know the Gita
the little boy, teddy, says that one day, he is watching his younger sister pour and drink a glass of milk
well, the little boy describes it as a vision (realization) of "god pouring god into god"...
well, that is right out of Gita an Upanisads... but few Americans had seen anything like that in the 1950s
so, it was a novelty...
now, it is old hat, perhaps, hackneyed, passé
so Agathon, like you said, you saw the Gandhi movie, but remember no melody at the end (it was as the credits rolled)...
but I used to sing that song all the time, so, I was conditioned to have it hit me like a ton of bricks...
but, consider all the times we might read and re-read something like Plato's republic, and then, one day, when we are open to it... we see something
we notice something in a totally new and different way... and we are thrilled and thunderstruck well the Gita thing is about pouring ghee (rendered butter) into the fire...
and it says of that "I am the sacrificer, and the sacrificed, and the fire which consumes
so, there is JD Salinger, plagiarizing it, in a sense
the drinking of a glass of milk becomes, "god pouring god into god"
some people claim that "a perfect day for banana fish" by Salinger is one of the greatest short stories every written
I mean, as a different example...
it is about a man, on his honeymoon, who has packed a gun in his suitcase, and ends his life...
but, Salinger has this weird dialog, on the beach , between the suicidal man, and this 8 year old girl
they wade out in the oceans water, and he tells her to look for "banana fish"...
so.. she asks him what a banana fish is....
now here comes my point about a reader being conditioned by his culture, language, heritage, to 1 look for symbols, and 2 recognize symbols from a certain tradition
Vedas started first, as oral tradition, circa 3000 bce, by a nomadic tribe who migrated from the plains west of the volga river, down into India...
and the Vedas were redacted like 1000 bce. I am guessing
next come the Upanisads I think as commentary...
after that comes Mahabharat... and Gita is one chapter in Mahabharat
so all that is redacted around 400 B.C.E. I think
well, as a kind of commentary
now it is interesting that the tribe from the north, were basically bhaktic in their culture... and pale in complexion, while the south Indians (Tamil) were dark complexioned, and meditative
so, there was a synthesis.... between the traditions
one of the most interesting observations that I read recently is that, in human prehistory, religion develops BEFORE written language,.... evolves in an oral tradition, and then, is redacted to some text.... but... it is all pre-literate pre-literature in its origins
just like the australian aboriginie "dream time"
which dates back to 50,000 bce based on cave drawings
one can sort of see the period of 600-500 bce as this very fertile period...
Siddhartha Gautama begins to preach around that time, and his contemporary Mahavaira (of the Jains), while in China, the Tao is developing, and within an century, the pre-Socratics in Greece,... and also, Zarathustra and the Avesta texts, which are closely related to the Vedas
I may be mixed up on some dates, but, that is what I can remember
American thinkers such as Thoreau, and Emerson, and people like that, from that period, the Transcendentalists, were quite taken with things like the Upanishads...
and I suppose, in some way, they sought freedom from Europe and its traditions
it seemed to them a breath of fresh air (although it was quite ancient),... and offered some hope or alternative, to individual freedom of thought...
that is just my guess
there is one upanisad in particular, which is a dialogue, and almost like stand up comedy...
one interlocutor asks "well, just how many gods are there anyway.."
so, the first answer is "330,333" (or something like that)
then, as the dialogue progresses, the number keeps dropping
until finally, it says "one and A HALF"
WHAT a riot
and finally it say, one
those Indians invented zero I am told
I mean, for someone in 5th century bce to say "1 and one half"
that blows me away... and... to have such a sense of humor
one might well compare that anecdote to Abraham, bargaining down to 10 righteous men in Sodom, from 50
and Mohammad bargaining down from 50 prayers per day, to 5
I mean, there is an obvious similarity
there are numbers, and the numbers go down, and not up
and do not forget, his name was initially Abram... and then, it got changed to Abraham
according to the account in genesis
and Sarai became Sarah
but, the word Sarah had something to do with "laughing"
because, she was a very old woman, and she was told she would have a child
perhaps I am confused
I get these things mixed up sometimes
nope, I googled on Sarah laugh... and there are lots of links
hmmm... let me see
right you are... I was confused
you see how wonderful irc and google can be,... I reinforce what I learned, and remember what I forgot (or am reminded)
well, I almost passed out when I learned that there is a Babylonian account that almost exactly matches noah and the ark, and the raven and the dove
I think from Gilgamesh
I mean, that is staggering when you first learn of it
I mean, if you grew up in my era and culture
I looked a Gilgamesh, a little,... I should have read it closely
I so love ancient texts from bce, because it preserves for us human thought undefiled by the events of later history
undefiled is unkind.... I should simple say,... unconnected
simply
oh... I have the book. and watched all 10 hours of that interview on tv with campbell
which was complete a year before Campbells death
Bill Moyers, that was who interviewed him
simply breath-taking

Campbell and Carl Jung where such giants and really changed things...
Jung was the greater giant,... but the were both giants
a graduate student at New School (I think)did her dissertation on Freud and Jung, and it became a book "Years of Friendship, Years of Regret"
and that biography clearly shows how and why Jung was the greater of the two men, and overshadowed Freud
and you know, Freud initially chose Jung to be his successor, to preserve Freuds "theory"... and
Freud realized that, because of antisemitism, it was important to choose a successor like Jung (who was not Jewish)

well, you have to understand something (and it helps to look at the Vichy govt in France, under the Nazis)...
when you are living under the thumb of such a tyranny... you cannot protest too loudly
you know, after WWII, the french wanted to have this great Vichy purge, and the executed several people...
then, their great WWI icon, Petain, who was then age 80, was about to be executed, and De Gaul pardoned him, and put a stop to is
put a stop to it
and, in the 70s I knew a Russian scholar, who had been on a newspaper in a Nazi dominated area...
my point is, it is easy to look at people in certain circumstances, and accuse them of certain things... which were really just their way perhaps of surviving
all I can say is I read Jung's "Memory Dreams Reflections", and a number of other things.... and I received no impression of Nazi sympathy
and, if he was antisemitic, he was sure chummy with Jewish Freud for a long time
hey, each of us sets what we feel are the limits...
I personally knew two scholars who lived under the Nazi regime, and were forced to write certain things...
and they were persecuted the rest of their lives for what I feel was something under duress
but, that is my subjective opinion...
you know, I was so shocked when the news came out that billy graham was on the Nixon tapes, making antisemitic remarks
antisemitic
but... I saw a documentary last night about grahams relation to all the presidents, from Eisenhower to Bush ...
well,... suddenly, I came to realize something....
namely, that someone can possibly be heavily influenced, seduced, by power, authority, and the moment...
and perhaps say or write something that they do not truly believe
I have seen people go on and on about some imagined flaw of Lincoln, and I have seen people go on and on about some alleged flaw of Gandhi...
I for one admire Lincoln and Gandhi and Jung... among others
I never met them, but I read a lot of their words...
if they had one or more flaws, or shortcomings, then I guess they are no better than I am...
but I admire what they wrote and thought...
each of us must make their own decisions about what and who they admire...
I will not try to force my opinion upon you or anyone else, you are free to come to your own conclusions
Dante, in his inferno, chose to place 3 people in the three headed jaws of Satan, in the center of hell... one was Brutus, who betrayed Caesar, another was Judas, the betraying disciple, and I forget the third
so, each of us is free to write our own inferno, and portray Satan with as many heads as we please, and place our favorite villains in each jaw
Agathon,... sleep well...
and I will tell you one little secret
I seek many things, but among them is not agreement...
you must come to your own decisions
but what you choose to think is your private matter...
I do not ask you to agree or disagree with me...
I simply see no value in that
the point is, it was Dante's take, Dante's "poetic license"
if you want to be Dante, you can place Lincoln, Jung and Gandhi in Satan's mouths.... its up to you
or Stalin... (how did he get in the mix, I don't know)
do I personally admire Stalin, Hitler, Mao, or Pol Pot... no, I do not...
do I care to argue about them with anyone, no I do not. what is the point
I will mention something that does interest me very much... a statement by Tolstoy
Tolstoy pointed out that "when we enslave a people, we become dependent upon them, in a curious fashion"
so, we defeat them, we control them, but we are weakened by our victory
and it is kind of like Socrates' argument that the powerful wealthy tyrant is the most wretched of people
but, just like pharaoh becomes dependent upon his slaves... I suppose that is the classic metaphor in western culture
perhaps it is all myth, but it is a myth which portrays a tyrant defeated by his own victory
so, true or false, lie or propaganda, a myth, a legend, whether Christ or Buddha or Krishna, or Mohammad, becomes a metaphor for certain things, and shapes the course of a cultures ideology
did you know that Gandhi and Tolstoy actually corresponded, and visited one another
Tolstoy
and, the mentor of Martin Luther King, who was Howard Thurmond, went with his wife to India and stayed with Gandhi for several weeks...
Gandhi instructed Thurman on the concept of passive resistance... and inquired of Thurmon how life in the Americas is for people of color
Thurmon in turn taught the notion of passive resistance to Martin Luther King, and it became a part of the civil rights movement
and Einstein corresponded with Gandhi, and , on Gandhi's birthday, Einstein wrote that "Future generations will read of this man Gandhi, and will scarcely believe that such a person actually walked the earth in the flesh"...
well, broader question, why isn't everyone any one thing in particular...
that is...
why after 5000 years of written history, is their so little conformity, or unanimous agreement on major issues of govt. religion, economy, education, jurisprudence
does that ever strike any of you as odd...
and.. by the way, one general said in recent years "we are technological giants, but ethical infants"
well, yes... with internet especially
I mean, I have talked regularly for years now, with young people in Pakistan, Tehran, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore
so, think of how freely ideas can flow now...
oh, I spent a lot of time on internet with graduate students in mainland china
so... this kind of contact cannot fail to have a transforming influence
well, of course, they are not as smart as you are... but... they are pretty smart.. I would say, yes, they understand the difference
there is this one woman, age 28, in med school, in Tehran, who never ceases to amaze me
she devours things like Plato, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky...
I am old enough to be her father, and she thinks of me a such
actually I am old enough to be her grandfather
anyway, I mentioned something very obscure to her in Brothers Karamazov...
and she finished my sentence for me... knew all about it
but, poor thing, she is trapped in a society which is not very free, or very pro feminine rights
she speaks English, French, Farsi... she is amazing...
I keep urging her to get out of Iran
but.... it is so much "in her blood"
Michael, you make one interesting point... namely, that.... we only have access to those thinkers who chose to write...
if there were some great thinker who disapproved of the written word, then , we would never know
now, here is another curious fact to realize, namely, that any ideology that was against proselytizing, converting, and against written word... encouraging individual thought,... well, it would never achieve hegemony and dominance
which mean, in a nutshell, that anything that survived and spread, was , in some sense, aggressive, rather than passive....
or should I say, less peaceful, rather than more peaceful
precisely
what can I say, the unexamined life is not worth living, said Aristotle (and David Viscott said 'the unlived life is not worth examining')


I love david viscott's works...
He wrote his autobiographical "The making of a psychiatrist" in which he said that...
"Psychiatric residency is so cut throat, that, anyone who survives is about as compassionate as a hard boiled owl"
which is a great irony, because psychiatry requires compassion and empathy
I think carl rogers is one example of a very compassionate empathetic analyst,.... as was also Alfred Adler
well, as I often say, a little education goes a long long way
most likely, yes, and it will be each other
Einstein supposedly said "I do not know about World War III, but I know that World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones"
perhaps they will genetically engineer a breed of paraplegic gazelle, and then hunt them with fly swatters.... I don't know

consider the thousands of years that the native American Indian life in North America
sorry, I come and go from the keyboard
the native American was so hardy, through natural selection... that he lived with no medicines or surgery
now, we live perhaps to 100, but we are very weakened by our own technology
but.... is it better to have a vigorous life to 40... or live to 100 and be a weenie
I mean, we are so dependent on antibiotics... just as one example
a centenarian weenie is a happy weenie indeed, I know
with their pace maker, and hearing aid...
gulping down dozens of pills a day, to keep everything going...
I am a 60 yr old weenie... but I am working on it
actually, I will be grateful if I can die naturally in the next 5 years or less
I don't enjoy life much any more... and suicide is so embarrassing....
so, if I could just go naturally... with a stroke or heart attack,... that would be a blessing
well, everyone says,... "oh my, he killed himself"
but if you just die naturally.. then, it is ok
my failing health, and money problems... and many other reasons... the feeling of no future, no hope... I mean, I would not bother to say this, but you are asking me
I am disappointed by my own failures in life... and I am disappointed by the world and humanity
do you know, I have a young friend in England, who became a heroin addict, and told me about it...
and then, he stopped
but, one day, I asked him the details of a lethal overdose... because,... it seemed like something accessible,... feasible.. and he got angry
he told me he would not give me such information
you know, this is actually a philosophic issue... raised by Camus
in Myth of Sisyphus.... the opening paragraph
where is says the most fundamental question is whether to commit suicide
Camus was so brilliant
Camus was the better writer... at times approaching Kafka
miklas, I admire thomas mann, and I have thought of that at various times
I mean, the obligation to stick it out
like a duty
sorry for being so boring

well, you are a shining example of that, I must confess... you have a point.. yes, think for yourself,... don't be quoting all these dead fuddies
but, I know you will all cheer me up
my favorite sentence from Camus... "Perhaps the greatest sin, the only sin, is to hanker after some imagined future life, and ignore the implacable grandeur of this life we already have"
but, Camus suggests that even Sisyphus finds some happiness, in the moments when he walks back down the mountain
Eastman, the founder of Eastman Kodak, was informed that he had an incurable disease, that would result in an agonizing slow death... so, he wrote a note saying "my work is done" and shot himself in the head
in his case, I do not thing he was depressed, I think he was making a practical choice
yes, I watched that documentary
one old fellow from Germany,... was interviewed
he had a degenerative neurological condition
he was traveling there before he became totally incapacitated
he chose that physician assisted end rather than a slow agonizing end
the Hippocratic oath, in its original form, also begins with a prayer to 3 pagan gods.... which the Jews objected to, so Maimonides wrote a Jewish oath, which is used today...
I mean, for people who don't want to swear to Apollo and Aesculapius
I went through St. Sohns Annapolis with this fellow who became a medical doctor... and several year ago, we discussed physician death
he is a devout christian, so he told me his objections... but I discovered a very curious flaw in his reasoning...
well, I hesitate to explain the flaw, because, it had to do with his own christian belief, and I might be perceived as violating channel rules
well, when and if an op gives me the nod... I will explain
exactly
I am not going to play 20 questions about it... plus, you could never guess it
ok... who wants me to tell them in PM
you mean, I have Skept's permission to explain the flaw in the christian doctors reasoning...
ok... here it is... we discussed the scenario of someone on life support, and the doctors choice is to either overdose with barbiturates, morphine, which means quick merciful death
OR. to unplug the tubes which means a long slow death by dehydration, very degrading
well.. my christian doctor fellow alumnus explained his reason why he would never choose the barbiturate/morphine...
but would be forced to choose unplugging the tubes
his reason, in an nutshell (in my own words/terms), is that he would be tainted with the "karmic consequence" of his deed...
hence, he would rather let the patient suffer, and keep himself pure, rather than take sin upon himself, and spare the patient suffering
SO, here is what I pointed out to him, how in a sense, his reasoning is in direct conflict with what Jesus would have done...
in the sense that, christian doctrine describes the crucifixion as willingly assuming the sins of all humans past present and future
so as to spare others suffering
well, he really got angry, and said my thinking is so twisted
but... listed to what a leading nephrologist who is agnostic humanist, at a leading hospital, replied to this scenario
he chuckled and said, "the overdose of barbiturates/morphine has the exact same effect as unplugging the tubes... except quicker, so.. what is the difference
to that nephrologist, ... it was just ludicrous for someone to morally struggle over such an issue
so, thanks skept, for the nod

and... if I may point out an interesting analogy between this point... and the recent documentary of Billy Graham entitled "Pastor to Power" (graham and all the presidents)
graham stuck by the ClintonS in their scandal, and spoke of forgiveness... and many conservative religious righters distanced from graham...
I mean, they despise someone who lives out in actions what they pay lip service to
Lincoln once said "If I make my enemy my friend, have I not destroyed my enemy"
Lincoln was cool
I wrote a living will by hand,... stating that I wish to refuse any extreme measures to sustain life
you know it is interesting that King Saul commits suicide, I think, by falling on his sword... but no comment is made about the moral implications
there is all kinds of links in google about Saul's suicide
I don't know, let me google
well, given that I just said I would consider suicide... I think that is rather obvious
oh... wow.. you bring up an interesting point, flaw, in Charles Stanley's theory of "eternal security"...
a young man, depressed, asked a pastor if he could go to heaven as a suicide, and the pastor said "yes of course, based upon eternal security"
so, the young man committed suicide
google on "Charles Stanley" "eternal security" suicide and you will probably read all about it
oh... wrong... the unforgivable sin against "the spirit" is something altogether different... the early Greek theologians had an explanation for that
I just did that google search and, bingo, 1500 links
yes, but, the channel rules forbid discussing religion, and I cant keep pestering mods for permission
I am sort of walking on eggshells as it is
ok... here is the clever Greek explanation about the unforgivable sin against the holy spirit, which probably dates as early as 4th century C.E. or perhaps no later than 7th century
the Greek theologians want to argue that all sins are repentable
BUT, here is this one statement about the mysterious "sin against the holy spirit" which is unforgivable...
so, here is their clever solution...
they argue that there is no sin which cannot be repented and forgiven
BUT... they point to pharaoh in Egypt...
and explain that "IF you perceive the power of Satan as god, and the power of god as satan"....
then... it is not that you could not repent and be forgiven...
but you would never approach the genuine source of forgiveness
I thought that was most clever of them


nooooo.... listen... the pharaoh of Egypt, had his magicians...
and they tried to imitate each wonder of Moses...
but the early theologians take that as an example.... along with the pharisees argument that Jesus power comes from Satan...
so... they argue that no sin is unpardonable... BUT the sin against the spirit is to see Satan as god and god as Satan
so, they argue that under such circumstances, you would never approach god, because you
ma zeh
mana
whatshamacallit
manna was whatshamacallit
in modern hebrew Ma-zeh
one verse said it was like coriander seed
and they would grind it I guess into flour
I just realized something amazing... if it is true that they had to grind the mana
well,... when they were thrown out of paradise, they were told that henceforth, they would have to live, "by the sweat of their brow"
so... I the manna were fast food... that would contradict the curse
if he had a hammer, hAd hammer in the mornin, he'd hammer in the evenin, all over the land
curiously, Buddhist scriptures speak of a "smallest unit of time" , like an atom,... and 150 of them is the time for one thought to occur
The Buddhist doctrine of momentariness (ksa-na) is pivotal to a number of key ... concretized and established as the smallest unit of time (0.013 seconds),
googling on buddhism smallest "unit of time" yields 4400 links
I mean, it is amazing that in 300 bce, people are thinking about such things
I have often wondered, is reality digital or analog
I mean, would a digital representation entail some incommensurability
I suppose it could not possibly be digitally represented precisely
I had an amazing thought the other day, to support the holism notion, that reality is greater than the sum of its parts (in contrast to a reductionist notion that it can be reduced exactly to parts)
in a nutshell... here is my idea
jung in his monograph "On the Nature of the Psyche", states that matter has "a psychoid" aspect which strives towards consciousness
so... let us say that matter evolves consciousness which has the power of imagination...
and... furthermore, let us say that thoughts and ideas also possess being and existence....
now.... if we posit that the imagination is capable of conjuring an infinity of realities, unicorns, horned rabbits... yada yada
then, that would suggest that reductionism is wrong
since, the one property of consciousness, imagination, produces an endless infinite number of things
well, consider people like Dedekind.... and all that transfinite number stuff
why.... if ideas have being... then mathematics alone proves the point I should thing
I should think
well, just think about it
I am an old man, I cant indian wrestle over it... but I thought it was an interesting idea
like arm-wrestling... google on it... I will
A form of wrestling in which two opponents, lying supine in reversed position, lock their near arms, raise and.... yada yada... google knows all, tells all
aha... but, dont you see... it does not matter at all what I personally think... or whether we agree or disagree.... all that matters is your subjective choice, what to read, and what you think of it
to me, that is one of the most important realizations, that few realize...
I loved Leibniz
how strange, I have been thinking about monads this week
we had an old tutor at st johns in the 60s, Winfree Smith, who would sing a little song whenever we read Leibniz
Im a little monad short and stout, got no handle got not spout , nothing coming in and nothing going out
lots of little monads all about
I was a sort of non practicing ordained reverend, who drank a WHOLE LOT
and he grew mint each spring...
and threw a mint julep party for the seniors
and, a house is not a home
and, a house divided cannot stand
and, a house built upon the sand, is uninsurable
and, whoever is elected, there will always be a bush in the whitehouse
bush in the sense of hair
if you get my drift... that was a joke on the Tonight show 15 years ago I think
well, look at Godel's META mathematical statements (calculus)
and Hegel's "flower of philosophies"
a kind of meta stance, standing back,
certainly meta theology is something that Huston Smith and Ninian Smart, and many others do
I have been doing it as a hobby for 20 years
sure, I have been posting on the internet for 10 years... I drew all sorts of conclusions... this one college student 6 years ago, told me he was reading my stuff for weeks, and was failing his courses..
but, he seemed a little imbalanced
in fact.. of the few people that took some interest in what I wrote,.... a disturbing number seemed imbalanced in one way or another
I would say that all the ideas which came about prior to the existence of humans are far more natural than anything which arose thereafter
ok... I posted something here several hours ago that is an example of meta theology
I did the thing about the upanisads... the countdown from 330,333 gods, to 1.5 gods to 1
then I pointed to a similarity with Abraham, bargaining down to 10 righteous men in Sodom
that is part of the amazing humor of the upanisads
then, I pointed to Mohammad bargaining down from 50 prayers to 5 prayers a day
I mean... whether it is goofy or not.. that is a form of meta-theology
just like Godel stands back from every axiomatic system, and contrives a calculus of meta-mathematical statements
and just like Hegel stands back from individual philosophies, and generalizes a pattern of thesis, antithesis, synthesis
sort of like the argument between Hilbert and Godel at the convention in 1905 (or thereabouts)
on Hilbert's tombstone, it says something in German like "we will succeed, we must succeed"
but Hilbert asserted that any mathematical truth must be provable
and godel proved him wrong with that indefiniteness proof
read up on Hegel... the phenomenology, the lesser logic
hey, dont ask me, what do I know, I am a stupid useless old man... I am probably full of baloney...
ok... let me explain it to you this way...
lets pretend that you are out digging in your back yard...
and you find this box....
and it has all these printouts,.... which is everything I ever posted on the internet...
except I have been dead for ten years...
so... you start reading... and you come across these things that I say...
welll... some of it seems ok... and some of it seems like crap
so.... what do you do???
do you argue with me about it....
no.... why///..>>>/??
because I am DEAD for ten years...
so... you do the same thing as when you read shakespear, or plato,... or some looney alchemist.... or anything else in print
right?
now, why is that significant

which is... you write your own essay or book.... or you right "in praise of Sitaram" or you write "refutation of Sitaram the idiot and heretic"
but, the point is... that... argument is pointless
now... consider the episode in the simpsons, where Krusty's side kick seizes control of all the television stations
now... Sideshow Bob, detests television...
so... he gets on the television stations, which he as seized, to denounce television...
and at the end... he says "and if you try to point out to me the irony of using the medium of television to denounce television... I have already thought of that
so... if I argue with you the point, that argument is basically futile.. then... I will become a bigger fool than I already am

but, I am too smart for that, because, I studied Sideshow Bob
ok... think about this... if I argue with this channel for the next 5 hours.. and finally, through the brilliance of my rhetoric , the scores of people here all unanimously agree with everything I say...will that make me right?
well, how could I be certain that if all of you agree with me, that I am right...
for all I know... people are foolish... and I have convinced foolish people to agree with me...

I come to these conclusions based upon my 10 years of being in chats and channels and message boards of this nature
but... I have no goal or desire to be agreed with
or disagreed with...

I have said some things... and some will find it interesting, and perhaps go and read or write something
and others will find it nonsesne and ignore it..

My goal is to get a few new ideas for myself each day...
and distract myself slightly from the misery of daily existence

it isnt about me so much as about the futility of equating argument with discourse, and consensus with facticity

hey, I just made that up

Do you know what the greatest secret of martial arts is?

The secret is: Steping aside

think about what I have done tonight
I have simply steped aside
but, you feel frustrated

Gandhi once approaced a large crowd of Sikhs, carrying rifles
Gandhi said to them, "you must be very frightened. you have rifles. see, I have no weapon. I am not frightened"
well.. the Sikhs were all embarrassed, and laid down their weapons
Gandhi simply "stepped aside"
here is an interesting thought, "for all any of us know... there is an infinity of time prior to our birth when we did not exist. this thought never troubles anyone."
"but... the thought that we must die, and there shall be an infinity of time when we no longer exists.... that concerns and frightens many"
but... for all we know, we have already survived an infinity of non existence

it is almost 4 am for me
I just took a sleeping pill...

(someoe askes "is it wrong to assassinate someone")

I am reminded of that lutheran minister Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who attempted to assassinate Hitler
and wrote that essay called "Cheap Grace"

I thank you all for your hospitality.... you are kind to tolerate me here
thanks....

I never though I would receive a word from skept.... this is auspicious
and some weeks ago, the requested to place one sentence from me in "The Wheel"
I am grateful for these small honors

I bet they can measure the metabolism of the brain,... and see increases
or image thermal changes, during thought

someone once told me that life feeds on negative entropy
entropy is a measure of disorder

so... negative entropy is highly ordered, with potential energy, to be metabolized